Do you consider the E36 M3 a classic?

[murphymurf]

It's funny m635, your biggest grip is the e36 M3 looks do not stand out enough from it's non M siblings. Yet you rave about and e34 and e39 M5's, car designs that pride themselves on being understated and the later only differs in looks by a slight spoiler change, a tiny hood lip and two extra exhaust tips. Yet it's "slight" advantage of 160hp and 140lbs of torque only nets it less than half a sec of 0-60 time over it's e36 M3 counterpart..... not so mind blowing. Side note: those early euro spec Canadian versions put out the same performance times as the s52 powered one. (although I still want one badly . Then the beast e46 M3 with it's massive hp and increased weight???? well....

stolen from another forum:
"Torque accelerates a car, not hp. Need to look at weight per unit of torque available under the whole rpm curve. But just looking at peak #s:

E36 M3 S52 = 3175lbs / 236ft-lbs = 13.5lbs/unit of torque

E46 M3 S54 = 3415lbs / 262ft-lbs = 13.0lbs/unit of torque

An advantage of 3% for the S54. Hardly double the performance.

Then consider added mass is harder to stop & corner."

I guess all that extra metal to make it look "mean" has just slowed down it's potential

And those e39's....... powered by v8's........ yet you blast anything that's not I6.......
Anyways, I know I'm not going to change your mind, but I thought it a little contradicting.

But Again. I don't consider the e36 M3 a "classic" either.... it's just an under rated work horse that isn't dressed up for the ball. So if looks are more important then ya, I wouldn't invite the e36 M3 to my exclusive "M" glamour party either.


all in good fun though guys

[Al Canuck]

Poor Gregory is getting owned all over this site!

My input on the whole thing? E36 M3 is not a classic. Maybe one day, but I doubt it. Collectable? Yes, for sure. Classic? Maybe to BMW fans, but not car collectors as a whole.

Part of the reason I love BMW's so much, is that they tend to be undervalued for what they provide. They largely unloved and undervalued in collector circles, and never sell for huge money.

Lets look at the 2002, as an example. Is a 2002 a classic? Hmmm, not really. Yeah, the 02 invented the sport sedan segment, and is responsible for saving BMW, and for allowing all of us to drive what we do today, but not a classic. Cult classic? Yeah, for sure. Those who like em, like em a LOT! I still remember giving Mark D a ride in a hot tii, and watching his face in amazement(horror?) at the things it could do. Mark is a BMW guy, yet even HE believed the 2002 was just an old car. So why then, are 2002's not largely regarded as "classic"? I don't know, I don't understand it. Even the rarest of the rare 2002 turbo, can be had for under $30k. Makes no sense to me.

Another one? The E9. There is not a person in the world who can say they aren't lovely to look at. Add in all the other mechanic genius they have, like 4 pot calipers, IRS, ballsy 6 cylinders.....etc. They were BMW's answer to the 2+2 Ferraris of the day. Hand made, high performance, and drop dead gorgeous. So why then, can I still buy one for $20k? Puzzling....

Aside from the 507, M1, and maybe a few other limited production hotrods, BMW's arent classics in the truest sense. The E36 M3 is not even on the classic car radar. Wonderful cars, and I'd be happy to park one downstairs, but not classic. Never will be.

There is a difference between cult classic, and true classic. Sadly, there is no clear definition, you just kinda know which is which.

M3's, and 2002's are definitely icons, but not classics. I'm reminded of a conversation Luis and I had the other day at the shop. BMW's were of course on the brain, and we started speaking of Dean, and his M cars. Luis said "Must be tough, trying to decide which to drive....the supercar, or the icon!". Gave us both a chuckle.

Al

[Blakeoffire]

Aaah, the E36 M3. To enthusiasts, easily the least-desired and least-loved of all the M3's. Which is a shame, really. It had adequate grunt and sounded excellent. There was no shortage of performance. But when you consider that the E30 M3 4-pot was bred from a rather successful run of racing victories and sublime handling characteristics, the next-gen E36's larger I6 and lack of any racing pedigree, extra weight and (legendary) slow steering were somewhat of a letdown. Earlier models exhibited these problems moreso and eventually the steering/handling problems were ironed-out as the model progressed along though.

To me, I always appreciated the understated qualities of the original E28 M5. If you de-badged one, you'd never know that you were looking at an M5 unless you had an enthusiasts eye. I'd always assumed that BMW adopted this line of thinking with the E36 M3 (or perhaps they had just decided to become lazy...?). Either way, it is still regarded as the 'ugliest' of them all.

From everything I've read about the E36 M3, its major limiting factors (besides its looks and that tacky interior wood finish) have been its inabilities to project the highly coveted, hunkered-in, low-slung sensation and intimacy of the E30 M3. It was such a drastic difference and letdown at the time in terms of 'the next M3..!'. Taken alone though, without the racing pedigree and outstanding feedback/handling of the previous E30 M3, the E36 M3 was an aural delight with substantial grunt that only got better as the years went on.

A classic..? Hmm...hard to pin that tag on it when it has had to endure years of critical lambasting from the very folks (BMW enthusiasts) that are, in a very large way, responsible for instilling such a degree of status towards a car. IMO, the (rightfully) legendary E30 M3 prevents it from ever being such a thing.


B.

[MGuy]

In general "classic" means certain things when referring to a car. Limited production, age, popularity/desireability when produced are all factors. As Al says, BMWs are not generally in the "classic" realm, regardless of age. Look at the main competitor: Mercedes-Benz. They have a number of cars considered classic, while BMW has only a few.

That said, within the small odd world of BMW enthusiasts, the E36 M3 isn't usually considered classic. I suppose it's the mass-production, and lack of racing pedigree (compared to the E30 M3). Maybe as time goes by it'll attain that status, but it'll take more time than the E30, for sure.

[///mugello]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince Hey Andrew, where are you? Your euro E36 was the nicest one I've ever seen. Speaking of classics, I was dropping the hammer on some bikers out in Pt. Grey yesterday (in the car) and saw a yellow 246GT. Now that's a genuine classic.

Hey Vince,

Unfortunately, I sold it. I've seen it by Granville and 71st, Marine Drive and a couple of times in Kits. Within these times the car was filthy each time and once was parked outside on a busy street (left overnight). It's like seeing an ex-girlfriend with some slicked back guido. You just say to yourself "man, she deserves better". But whatever, I had to let her go due to parking space. Yes, I'm an idiot.

I've been in E30 M3's and I'd say they both offer a unique feel and give you a sense of excitement. They are completely different driving experiences. Not sure about the NA E36 M3. I see it more as a tuner car that you can beat up on a track.

My new car is now a more practical C43 Mercedes. I'll sell this within a couple of years as I am in no way attached to it (I don't even have pics). Drives like a tank, a very fast tank.

Andrew

[Mark D.]

Ya you guys are right, its not a classic, in fact its hardly even a BMW, nevermind an "M" car, sheesh. What a waste of time those cars are......

All of you that own them, especially low mile E36 M3's with the S52 etc. please post your cars for sale in the Classified section of this lovely site. Hopefully they will be under $5k as no one likes em anyways....

I will do my best to purchase them all..... Sue will, well, just have to understand......

[M635]

Originally Posted by Mark D. Ya you guys are right, its not a classic, in fact its hardly even a BMW, nevermind an "M" car, sheesh. What a waste of time those cars are...... All of you that own them, especially low mile E36 M3's with the S52 etc. please post your cars for sale in the Classified section of this lovely site. Hopefully they will be under $5k as no one likes em anyways.... I will do my best to purchase them all..... Sue will, well, just have to understand......

There's no other person that can sum up a conclusion as good as Mark.

[restart]

forget it, classics are 25 years old....
2002s are classic
last year for e21? uhhh
if its 25 years or more
i'd hafta say they are approachin same
what was last year for hand built bimmers any who
1982/3??
the f(r)iendly guy
big al

[direction88]

I have said it before and I still stick to it. The only decent looking e36 has 4 doors, I also have to agree with Greg on how bland the e36 M3 is compared to other M cars and I simply hate the headlights on the e36. Looks are a huge part of my love for BMW's so go ahead and flame me over the 4 door/cosmetic comments but lets face it, if you want a balls to the wall all out track car look for something with the engine in the correct place! As far as my opinion on the e36 being a classic that's a big hell no! What is a "classic"? I dunno, Wendy's big bacon classic?!

[direction88]

Originally Posted by restart forget it, classics are 25 years old.... 2002s are classic last year for e21? uhhh if its 25 years or more i'd hafta say they are approachin same what was last year for hand built bimmers any who 1982/3?? the f(r)iendly guy big al

the f(r)iendly guy
Hey is that directed at me?! LOL I do apologize for any perceived rude or unfriendly comments I made in previous posts. To be honest when I see the first (and last) post from a new member and it is something for sale it kind of irks me. I feel that this site is a place to converse and get to know other BMW enthusiasts and not an ebay or craigslist. I was wrong about you and I hope you accept my attempt to bury the hatchet? If I see you at one of the meets (I hope you will be attending) your coffee/"subway" LOL (sorry lame inside joke) is on me. Nice to meet you. Liam

[restart]

you flatten urself

[Polaris78]

Hey,

To answer this question, I think we have to define 'classic cars'. I for one tend to agree with Al in that, overall, with few exceptions, BMWs are not classic cars, and collector prices reflect this. I suspect they (like the e9) are too common, and work too well to meet the criteria. Saying this, I don't really follow or care too much about the 6-digit plus car scene.

Other potential criteria...
1. Value - price (as above), but also if a car is appreciating or at least no longer depreciating.
2. Age - 25 years is one measure, but one can have a mint 20000 orginal km 1960s rust free Toyota Corona - scarce as hens teeth and old (and cool) but a classic? By traditional measures probably not.
3. Historical Significance - new, first, inovative, trend setting - ie Beetle.
4. Condition
5. Wide Market appeal/appreciation - who doesn't respond to a 1960s Ferrari 250?
6. Production numbers

In short, to be strict, one may define a classic as an extremely valuable, rare, historically significant, widely appreciated automobile in excellent condition (though last point is debatable - isn't a rusty but retorable BMW 507 barn find still a classic car...just not yet in show condition?).

Thus, if one were to agree with this fairly strict criteria as the definition of a classic car, the e36 M3 definitely does not fit.

Saying all of this, I would prefer to use the term 'classic' not in the broad sense, but in a more specific context - what constutites a 'classic BMW' (or a classic German or European car)? In this category, one could use the following criteria:
1. Age - 25 years or older
2. Condition
3. Historical Impact/significance or representative of a passed era (ie air-cooled VWs)
4. To make it a true classic - add production numbers

To me, a VW Type 4 is a classic VW and classic European Car - and a super-clean survivor, just by virtue of its age, condition, survival, and dated technology, is a classic.

I would likewise define an e3 Bavaria, 2002 (tii or not) as classic BMWs - old, cool, and perhaps to me most important, representative of a passed era of automotive design. This may be too broad for some, but I would have no problem with someone checking out that Mint Green 2002 'Poon' was looking at at a show and saying 'hey...nice classic BMW'

Someone else in this thread mentioned that he saw the M42 powered E30 as the last of an era, and I would largely agree with him.

I very much see a dividing line between the functionalist/modernist era of human driven automobile design (function before form, and designed by men with pen and paper first, with computer assistance second)
VS.
the post-modern or current era, where cars seem to be designed with computer imput primary, drawn up by committee (what do consumers want, as opposed to a designer coming up with a creation). This is very, very general...but I think the e30, e28 and e24 all belong to the previous era of auto design, thus in a sense making them 'classic BMWs' while the e34, e36 and onwards were the beginning of the current era...this is not a knock against them however...

By this second definition of classic, I don't see the e36 M3 meeting the criteria either. In 20 years however...when the muscle cars are 1.0L hybrids (let's hope not), then the e36 M3 may seem like the serious good ol' days!

Just my few cents, and if some may think this response long, please keep in mind that I'm in serious procrastination mode right now, as I have a bunch of junk to do that I don't really want to get to!

Take Care,
C

[DS Rook]

Great post Polaris. And...... I also am avoiding work right now.

[Mark D.]

Originally Posted by direction88 I have said it before and I still stick to it. The only decent looking e36 has 4 doors, I also have to agree with Greg on how bland the e36 M3 is compared to other M cars and I simply hate the headlights on the e36. Looks are a huge part of my love for BMW's so go ahead and flame me over the 4 door/cosmetic comments but lets face it, if you want a balls to the wall all out track car look for something with the engine in the correct place! As far as my opinion on the e36 being a classic that's a big hell no! What is a "classic"? I dunno, Wendy's big bacon classic?!

4 door M3???? Over a 2 door M3????

Ok Dad..........

[VtwinVince]

LOL Polaris, I learned to drive on a 1967 Corona, blue, rust free and with a three-on-the-tree shift. I loved that car, it was pretty quick and fun to drive.